dnd’s Thoughts on the 2nd Amendment Decision.

I’ve got a few thoughts on Thursday’s SCOTUS 2nd amendment ruling.  But first some background on my relationship with guns.  I grew up in Colorado, and for many of us it was a right of passage to get a BB gun, and later a .22.  If we were interested in hunting we might get a 30-06 or a shotgun.  Pistols were primarily used for target practice.  Gun safety was always, always, the most important lesson.  So the issue of handguns in the commission of crimes was always repulsive.  Sure handguns were part of the west’s history, and handguns are the weapon of choice in crimes, but those of us here who collect guns, use them for target shooting or hunting have a different mindset.  Let’s just say that we really despise those who commit crimes with guns and ruin it for the law abiding crowd.

The whole argument about banning guns is a red herring.  It ain’t gonna happen.  And the issue of having a pistol to protect oneself is likewise.  Most who own pistols for protection don’t know how to use them, and choke if they have to.  They wind up getting shot by their own gun.  Or shoot someone else by accident. Or shoot a spouse in a domestic dispute.

So what’s the answer?  I don’t know.  Certainly state’s rights seem reasonable, as the view of gun ownership is different in Wyoming than it is in DC.  All this leads me to believe that the only possible answer to gun violence is cultural, not legal.

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80 responses to “dnd’s Thoughts on the 2nd Amendment Decision.

  1. horsedooty

    nice take d nd. too bad there is not a spell check on Brian’s post. That or he is still asleep.

    Moring = Morning

    ¡yo soy Horsedooty!

  2. Well I don’t think it will come as surprise to anyone that I was disappointing by the court’s recent decision on the 2nd. Nor do I think it will come as a surprise to anyone that I wish we could repeal the second amendment. No one has ever been able to explain to me what good society receives by people being allowed to own hand guns. But the evidence of how society is being damaged by the fact we are awash in hand guns certainly evident. Now please don’t come back at me about hunter’s rights, I’m not talking about riffles, for the most part I don’t have a problem with hunters owning shot guns (single fire, nothing automatic), except of course our current VP and he’s within range of me!

  3. Very timely article on politico

    NRA plans $40M fall blitz targeting Obama
    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11452.html

  4. Brian and I have had two “shoot outs” on this issue at the old C-List so there’s no reason for us to do the same now. I havent read the decision but don’t care to find myself in the same company as Scalia and Roberts and the other two doofuses (doofi I think is plural). In the particulars of the DC gun law, it seems to have worked well for them, so I wonder why change now.

    On the other hand, as I have stated many times, the people that are running the White House right now aren’t just carrying out bad policies, they are bad people- criminals maybe. I kind of like the idea of an armed people.

    As for right now I’m swinging back a bit to the left in favor of some reasonable crime control measures.

  5. “As for right now I’m swinging back a bit to the left in favor of some reasonable crime control measures”

    Steve you get me hot when you talk like that!

  6. dnd

    As a follow up to Hip’s post, WaPo’s Richard Cohen:

    “Billy Graham’s observations about Jews were made a long time ago and were imparted in confidence to Richard Nixon and his secret White House tape recorder. The two ruminated about the power and influence of Jews, with Graham adding a bit of original investigative reporting: “They’re the ones putting out the pornographic stuff.” Had he peeked?

    Graham apologized for such remarks and said he no longer held such views, and everyone, including me, takes him at his word. His lasting damage, I offer as an aside, was to persuade the young George W. Bush to abandon his wastrel ways, at which he excelled, and instead seek the path that has led him to where he is now, a calamity for the nation and the world. Graham’s burden is heavy indeed. ”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/30/AR2008063001904.html

  7. dog's eye view

    Interesting post, am thinking on it. You are right about response being cultural, not legal.

    Have to say, if I lived in a spotty or isolated area, I would feel safer having a gun for protection, in event the police could not arrive quickly enough. But would respect its power and keep it safe from kids and adults who don’t know how to handle weapons.

    One has to remember the Korean (and other) shopowners protecting their businesses with rifles during the riots following the Rodney King verdict.

    Guns have their utility and place in culture, but they extract too great a price in young lives lost. Also victims, known to the shooter and not.

    Maybe this ruling will move us closer on the path to regarding guns from a public health perspective.
    =============

    Maggi and Burrito: hear you’ve been commenting on backchannel, and delighted to hear that! Have not yet read Maggi’s article yesterday, but will do so later and follow up. Just back from a family vacation and have mucho to do, so won’t be online much for another day or two.

    Greetings to all! The baby blog is off to a healthy start.

  8. BackChannel Blog trivia, the site with the second most referrers to this site is AP’s AMERICA WEEPS

    http://america-weeps.blogspot.com/

    Can we get an attaboy for Anon P?

  9. dnd

    A little something for our neighbors to the north on Canada Day:

  10. The Religious Right’s Uppity Woman Strategy

    “And husbands on their parts, because they’re sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged–or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches,” Ware said from the pulpit of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas,” wrote Rob Allen

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-wicker/the-uppity-woman-strategy_b_109794.html

  11. Brian,

    Glad to hear you are getting hot flashes up there.

    Off topic- I just saw that ford stock has hit 4.41 a share which freaks the hell out of me. I got out of the market in 2002 completely and havent been back in but Ford and Gm are all american stocks. this is a hel of a recession.

  12. I’m hoping the american auotmakers will finally get the msg and start getting serious about making fuel efficient cars, Chevy seems to be getting the msg!

  13. BTW folks, no need to worry about staying on topic!

  14. dnd

    Hip,
    Chrysler is closing a St. Louis plant. Toyota is poised to take over GM in US sales. The recession isn’t helping, and this isn’t helping the recession, but I think the key is leadership and making cars people want to buy. These days it’s not F-150’s and SUVs, and it won’t be as gas prices keep going up.

  15. I’ll tell you I have such mixed feelings about the American auto industry. For so long they’ve taken the easiest path by building these small trucks and calling them personal vehicles. Often the excuse given “we’re just building the cars people want”. Well that may well be true but that doesn’t prevent them for planning for future market trends does it? Why do you we keep rewarding an industry that refuses to plan for it’s own future, I know, jobs, but god damn enough is enough!

  16. dog's eye view

    Checking in for a moment.

    Have very little sympathy for the big 3 automakers who thought Christmas would last forever. How prescient did one have to be to wonder what would happen with the inevitable gas crunch? The real problem with this one is its timing when Americans are already stressed with a credit crunch, war, unobtainable or too expensive health care…. and the steepness and rapidity of gas price increases.

    (Am waiting for the first stories about gas station attendants being injured falling off ladders because they’re up there at least daily now changing the advertised gas price.)

    This one hits contractors so hard, though. My brother in law is one; he needs the big pickup truck for hauling materials and equipment to jobsites, which are far-flung. He saw $1,000/month in gas expenses concurrent with a huge and immediate drop in new work commitments — in 20 years, he has never had to advertise for work — is usually waitlisting projects and turning away clients for lack of time. (He does high end renovations and restorations in an established city, which would seem to be more recession proof, but no…)

    BIL is now driving as little as possible, and using a smaller vehicle when feasible. But some others may not have that option.

    Can you imagine living miles upon miles in some new exurb, and you are barely staying out of foreclosure and can’t afford a different car (never mind selling the SUV for what you thought it would be worth, or getting out from under the car payments too?)

    But hey, at least we still have our guns. (To stay on topic, although know we’re not required to do so.)

    Now: off to fire up the alligator loppers. Later.

  17. dog's eye view

    That emoticon was automatic! No idea why it appeared.

  18. dog's eye view

    Here’s NY Times on 11 great foods to include in diet — and they’re tasty and widely available. (Pumpkin, pumpkin seeds, beets, cabbage, blueberries…) They’re even pronounceable and not esoteric.

    Off topic, but enjoy!

    http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/30/the-11-best-foods-you-arent-eating/?em&ex=1215057600&en=

  19. dog's eye view

    Brian: check your link with 2:48 post.

  20. good catch there dog, so much for multi-tasking!

  21. Well I think (for my two cents) the revival of the automobile industry will be when they start making cars that are ahead of what the consumers want. You make fuel effective vehicles and the people will keep you in business, but you have to stay ahead of demand.

    Gotta run my kid to work—later!

  22. I also have no pity for the American auto makers, none what so ever. The writing has been on the wall, since I can remember. The foreign competition has only been growing for the last, oh say about 25 years.

    Isn’t that enough time for the industry to wake up and smell the roses? They really can’t claim they didn’t see this coming, their shareholders should be furious.

    Re: SUV I don’t have time to find the article, but some guy is making huge profits buying SUVs here and selling them to South America…..gas in Venezuela is about 20 cents a gallon last I heard.

    Have to ride my bike home – then go to the dog park…

    ciao

  23. Agreed UB, the problem is the thousands of American who are dependent on the US auto industry to maintain hearth and home.

  24. dog's eye view

    Jane Jacobs wrote on American cities, on their importance as idea and cultural incubators. She had a lot to say on cities and American competitiveness, and wrote a famous article on how modern Japan was rebuilt on a bicycle (made by Mr. Honda).

    Googled Jane Jacobs – Honda – manufacturing and found this extraordinary blog.

    [writer Richard Murphy discussing Detroit’s downturn]:

    ….”We were warned 40 years ago.

    This is hardly a new problem, noted urban writer Jane Jacobs warned Michigan as early as 1969 that our economy was in danger, when her book The Economy of Cities singled out the Detroit auto industry as the model of a stagnant regional economy. The very success of the large auto companies would prove our downfall by minimizing experimentation. Cities are economically valuable, said Jacobs, not in spite of, but because of their inefficiencies. Successful city-regions are stews of economic activity, with lots of individuals and small businesses experimenting in wildly different directions. The inefficiency of experimentation, trial-and-error, and duplication of work by various small-scale companies maximizes the chances that new ideas and new industries will emerge.

    ….

    A century ago, Michigan hosted a myriad of auto companies, experimenting in different directions (gas, electric, even steam!). But by the ’60s, Jacobs was calling out the Detroit region’s auto industry as the opposite of a healthy, innovative, regional economy. Here was a region that had focused all of its energy on the agglomeration of a few large companies in one industry sector, and on streamlining those companies for maximum efficiency. We may have gotten very good at making automobiles, said Jacobs, but we did this at the cost of being good at anything else. …”

    ============

    I know, too long an excerpt and may Back Channel not be sued, but this blog put up by ConcentrateMedia.com/blogs bears checking out.

    Please read the rest of Richard Murphy’s post from July 2007.

    Great analysis of how Microsoft and Google buy promising startups and perfect the marketing and distribution — that innovation is primarily born in small companies; large ones exist to disseminate their work.

    http://www.concentratemedia.com/blogs/posts/Murphy0025-2.aspx

  25. dnd

    Dog,
    Don’t need to read Richard Murphy’s post. I see it all the time. You wouldn’t believe how much bureaucracy there is in large high tech companies and how it impacts getting things done. Even big companies that have pure and applied research labs have a tough time bringing products to market.

  26. dog's eye view

    dnd: I hear you.

    Stayed in Raleigh with a great guy, inventor who worked for one of the biggest tech companies, in one of their pure idea/blue sky groups. His list of good ideas from 10-15 years ago not pursued by the corporate parent — and now making beaucoups bucks and changing lives for the better — was startling, to say the least.

    Giving the public what they “want” is an excuse for not thinking a little harder, in many cases! And gets a zero in courage, often.

    Sometimes you need to try to take people where they need to go, but don’t perhaps think they need to go there, not just yet. Maybe in time…. blah blah blah.

    We see from current events what a great tragedy it was not to pursue cleaner renewable energy options and begin our trek away from oil dependence (again…) in the aftermath of 2000 and 2001.

    Elections matter.

  27. dog's eye view

    Brian: what is making that emoticon? I shall stop whatever I’m doing with the elipses! Can we disable it?

  28. it can be disabled, but why? there is a link to an emoticon guide up the links towards the top of the page.

  29. Brian –
    A loss of employment is always an issue when industries change. It’s just that this particular industry [auto] should have been able to move with the market and beyond. They could have been the best in the world had they chosen a different direction. 😦

  30. I like it….thanks for the upgrade to the spell checker too! 🙂

  31. Tonyb39

    dnd
    Thoughtful and balanced piece.I agree with you that the problem is cultural but the question is what can be done within the second ammendment to correct the hand gun problem?I also feel that this is not just a Rep. or Dem. problem as some in the NRA would have us believe.My dad was a life long Dem. and NRA member and wen’t around this little town here in Florida with a small snub nose revolver in his sock abd had many other guns and rifles at home.I myself can’t stand guns and when my dad died i woundn’t even touch them.I called the police and had them removed and deposed of as they wished.I have been visiting Australia yearly for a long time and what a pleasure it is to listen to the Skynews and just here about an occasional stabing!! I listen to my Austrailian friends say they would be afraid to visit the U.S. especially after watching there favorite episode of Cops as i set there ashamed.Sadly i don’t see a political figure that could take up the problem and get much support…….

  32. Tonyb39

    Hey all
    Well i am biased as i have worked for and recieve a monthly income along with medical insurance from Gen. Motors. since i have been eighteen years old and its the same for most of my family members 40 and over.I come from Flint,Michigan and that used to be the way of life there now sadly mostly gone!!! I agree so much of the blame is the fault of the U.S.auto companies.I think the cheap oil and high profit on trucks and suv’s kept them on that large vehicle roll.How they missed the handwriting on the wall that Toyota seen i guess can be explained as GREED!!Sadly the U.S. goverments failure to impose higher mileage standards on the automotive companies hurt us also.I believe it is in some cases the roll of government to protect us even from ourselves.

  33. dnd…

    As I said on one of Brian’s post as much as I don’t like Roberts or Alito I think they voted correctly on the 2nd. Amendment Issue before them.

    I too feel that there are to many guns in America, however I also believe that we the people have the right to own a gun if we so choose to do so.

    After all many who dissented about their ruling like to keep saying that it says militia and the states already have that protection through the National Guard.

    So where are the Guard? There in Iraq being destroyed just like the Army is being destroyed.

    The way I see it is that the people during the time the Constitution was born were the militia though not under any authority until they would come together to protect the homes and lives from those who would take them for there own purposes.

    Then they would become one source in their area to protect there homes and towns. It was the people than and it is still the people now who need there weapons to fight against tyranny should it raise its ugly head again.

    If events occur as I feel they will the people will once again need to rise up and fight for there Rights, Country and Constitution.

    We need workable gun laws and we need to make sure they are enforced. I do not believe though that citizens need assault weapons. Assault weapons are made for only one purpose and that is to kill people. At least not yet until we are fighting the Government as we did the British to gain our Freedom back.

    Good post and thank you for your thoughts and opinion…

    God Bless.

  34. Anon,
    I agree with you. I have many times thought about arming our home. Just hasn’t happened yet. We are all getting our passports up to date, for travel, but also in case conditions become such that we want or need to leave.

    That is all real scary stuff, but if we continue as we have for the last 8 years, it isn’t far fetched. (maybe either way it’s not far fetched)

    Look what has happened to the Iraqi people.

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/35670

  35. Burrito I just got this image of you slugging around an uzi with amo belts slung over your shoulders, be afraid, be very afraid!

  36. lol…..yeah…. I can see that….lol

  37. get on my sh*t list and …..papapapapapppow!

  38. 😳 that’s one crazy_burrito

    no worry, not armed yet…still into peace…. 😀

  39. We better get dog a drink quick! LOL

  40. U.B….

    This has been brought up a few times already how many have fled there homeland for safety.

    Lets not forget either the million and a half who are displaced inside Iraq or the over 100,000 thousands men, women and children who have been killed.

    One note though, just because you have a passport doesn’t mean that you would be allowed to leave the country.

    Don’t forget that there is a no fly list and if your put on it you will never be taken off it or allowed to fly anywhere, even inside the United States.

    Better look for other ways out now as one day it may be too late.

    God Bless.

  41. I know what you mean, but it’s always good to have a current passport. When we traveled back in 2005, my son’s name was on the no-fly list. It cause a lot of problems and it was ridiculous, he was 13 at the time. They pulled me aside and tested my cheap rubber flip flops for bomb material….it was ridiculous.

  42. did I say it was ‘ ridiculous ” ….lol

  43. On the trail today, Obama in Colorado Springs, Colorado and tomorrow in North Dakota. I think McCain is in Peru or something.

    Somebody tell Mr. Magoo the people down there cant vote in our elections.

  44. chefsheila

    Good Morning!

    What is going on with Obama? Since I am missing all shows because of my work hours lately….I’m clueless and want to hear it from you guys.

    I don’t know what to believe right now. It appears that there is a little implosion taking place and shouldn’t be because of what Gen Clark said, which I agree with.

    My gut says there is more happening behind the scenes that we don’t understand. I could juxtapose on the basis of theory.

  45. chefsheila

    Hey Steve,

    From what I hear, McCain is going down there to show the hispanic community Here that he is cool….

    That is really desparate and actually would be viewed as pandering by the American citizens who are hispanic….I could be wrong, but aren’t they voting for their future in this country and not their past?

  46. Sheila, I was just being a jerk about Magoo

  47. chefsheila

    Great Article on the Military’s leaning toward Obama For President.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/01/military-see-presidential_n_110350.html

    Looks as though It si breaking generationally and by rank, just like my has said for the last 6 months.

    The higher the rank and the older you are, the more likely your are to vote McCain.

    At this writing, the Military is still leaning toward McCain, but the margins are much closer.

    That new development is significant because the Military, for the last 40 years has been a sweep for the Republicans.

  48. chefsheila

    Steve (Aging Hipster), on July 2nd, 2008 at 8:14 am Said:
    Sheila, I was just being a jerk about Magoo

    It Ok, I noticed. ;0) Just thought Magoo’s journey was lame enough to comment myself.

  49. chefsheila

    Time to take a gulp of coffee….

    “just like my SON has said for the last 6 months.”

  50. Sheila your Obama point: I’m extremely displeased with Obama’s toying with this religious crap. The whole “Faith Based” Thing was nothing but a Rovian ploy to turn the Federal Government into a giant political machine, rewarding their loyal toadies on the religious right. The whole scam should be dismantled.

    Nevertheless, I have no choice but to support Obama. I often vote Libertarian but Bob Barr was in on the impeachment and voted for the Patriots Act, Chuck Baldwin is crazy and Ralph Nader gave us Bush in 2000. So those three are out.

    I won’t even consider voting for McCain.

    Of Clark: I think his remarks were somewhat bumbling but I agree with them. McCain served honorably but that doesn’t qualify him to be President. The whole country is too damn jingoistic right now any way. We need to get away from all this militarism.

  51. Actually I think he thought he was heading for Columbia, Missouri for a campaign stop but got addled and ended up in Columbia the country.

  52. dog's eye view

    Good morning Chef Sheila! How is the arm this morning?

  53. Whoops should have said “Patriot Act” when discussing Bob Barr.

  54. chefsheila

    Laughing @ Steve,

    Hi Dog, its not good but not as bad as when i spent the day typing. If I leave it be for a week, I think it will calm down.

  55. chefsheila

    Steve,

    I think I have always broken on the side of Libertarian, but have never voted in that mode. I really believe in the government leaving me alone.

    I think the explanation for Libertarian has been scewed in recent years too. I don’t see most Libertarians as more republican-like.

    However, nothing like a crisis and ware to redefine everything political.

  56. chefsheila

    Dog!

    You recovered from “Too Much Fun” on the NC Coast?

  57. I started voting for Libertarians here and there in 2006. We have a real good one here in GA named Allen Buckley who is always running for something and I have voted for him twice.

    As others have said I was going to vote for McCain in 2000 but he got knocked out in the primaries. I wish he would have won back then, but that was 8 long years ago and i wont consider voting for him now.

  58. chefsheila

    I guess that is a majority view Steve. I was a McCain person when he was a Real Maverick and would have voted for him in 2000….no more.

  59. chefsheila

    Steve, About Obama’s faith based initiative statement.

    From all the reading, I would say that its a thought on how to help combat the looming crisis of homelessness that could and will happen when we cross the abiss of deep recession.

    There are many many many churches, synagogs, and temples that have already taken on the responcibility of food banks, clothing drives, and shelters.

    His suggestion publically is that the governement should be helping these programs because they are doing the important work, rather than “Just say no to sex programs”.

    he also would extend subsidising to faiths other than Christianity.

    Like Wicca and its prison outreach for the last 20 years. You may wince, but Wicca has done and outstanding job. Why can’t they get a little susidising?

  60. chefsheila

    As far as libitarian leanings? I have decidely gone farther left after the invasion and also the panic building for me over the last 15 years by the far right’s hold on this country’s pocket books and the subtle raping of the middle class financially.

  61. chefsheila

    LOL How different is this picture?

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/07/barack-obamasoc.html

    ABC News’ Sunlen Miller Reports: Presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama took a little break from the campaign trail to be a soccer dad.

    Carrying a folding “Sports Authority” lawn chair slung over his shoulder, Sen. Obama, D-Ill., arrived at the soccer field on the Chicago campus of the University of Illlinois with his family to watch his older daughter’s soccer game.

  62. dog's eye view

    She: good answer about the outreach to faith-based communities. Have not been following news closely, but recall which organizations were among the earliest on the ground offering real help to Katrina survivors — it was churches, local, regional and national, bringing in volunteers and getting food and water to those without.

    Faith-based groups have a lot to offer, as long as proselytizing is not part of the deal.

    They are a good way to use the talents and resources of the greater community to benefit those within and outside that community as well.

  63. chefsheila

    Dog,

    Can I say AMEN? Use the neighborhood to help the city in a crisis. They are always more effective in understanding what is needed and more willing to have just the right empathy.

    I would think evengelising is always a danger but not so high on the list in a crisis.

  64. chefsheila

    WOW……I know what is going on….

    You see, Obama hasn’t taken Clark personally to task and Clark hasn’t take Obama to task.

    Both are speaking separate of each other. I think they are playing a game to plant some doubt.

    Obama cannot speak out against the very subject that Clark broched. So while Obama says “Do Not Touch his Military Service” and Clark makes an argument separately, it sets up doubt in conservatives minds.

    Not a stretch and very clever.

  65. chefsheila

    Pundits are all saying that the Clark/McCain/Obama dust up will only last another 24 hours in the media.

    But it will have cast some doubt with logic and who better than a General to cast it…

    I’m impressed again.

  66. dnd

    Hey I believe in the govn’t keeping it’s nose out of my business. And their hands off my money. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Does that make me a libertarian?

  67. chefsheila

    Listening to this Rose Garden Statement.

    Bush….the least accomplished President in the Spoken Word….my goodness and people have a hard time with Obama’s stop and start….

    At least their is a brilliant mind thinking bofore voicing public statements.

  68. chefsheila

    Dnd…in a word. No. ;0)

    Socially liberal, fiscally conservative.

    I am too. Libertarian is not what it used to be since 9/11. All I was sayin.

  69. chefsheila

    wiki-planation

    Libertarianism is a label used by a broad spectrum[1] of political philosophies which prioritize individual liberty and seek to minimize or even eliminate[2] the state.[3][4] What it means to be a libertarian in a political sense is a contentious issue, especially among libertarians themselves. There is no single theory that can be safely identified as the libertarian theory, and probably no single principle or set of principles on which all libertarians can agree.[5] Libertarian is an antonym of authoritarian.[6]

  70. chefsheila

    Time for work and a birthday bbq tonight for a grandbaby.

  71. dog's eye view

    Hey, do you think I could get some of these bucks?

    Leona Helmsley leaves billions for the welfare of dogs. Although trustees to her will are investigating broadening the scope of charity. (She originally specified aid to indigent people and dogs, and later struck the people from her instructions. That sounds in character.)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/us/02gift.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1215011391

  72. dog's eye view

    For those who did not punish themselves enough reading the recent NYTimes magazine cover story on Chris Matthews.

    This Sunday will feature a profile of Rush Limbaugh. NYTimes website has a great photo of him up — very film noirish portrait. Much more appealing than their treatment of Mark Warner many months back. (Remember how he ended up looking descended from mules?)

    Anyway, enjoy!

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06Limbaugh-t.html?hp

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