Faith Forum Assesment As Only Chef Sheila Can

Strictly speaking and from my personal perspective, There were few differences and just one Big one from the Senators Obama and McCain at the Saturday night  Faith Forum performed at Saddleback Church.  There are going to be a lot of so called experts who will parse each answer to smithereens to really understand who won.  But I say both did on the surface and one on authenticity. A very important aspect of Christian Evangelicals. Can You Walk The Walk.

Senator Obama succeeded in making a concrete case for the Evangelical Youth. He managed to quell the last bits of uneasiness about being a Muslim  for the more sane audiences too. There was definitely a sigh of relief for anyone wanting to vote for him and yet not understanding his spirituality.

McCain was succinct on party message. Anyone who just wanted to hear party line in order to feel better got a real treat. The place in which I heard the real John Mcain and not the stuffed shirt politician running for President and trying to sound like “Reagan”, was his account of his turn toward spirituality at the Hanoi Hilton. Can’t argue with his honesty and a reasonable amount of emotion there.

Now folks, With Saddleback Church footing the bill for all of the transmission fees, I’d say this was a target audience broadcast and a gift of sharing to the rest of us. So, as a Democratic Evangelical I will say that Senator Obama was much more comfortable in his spiritual skin and John McCain was rehearsed. I would even take a bet that John McCain had not attended church in a regular way before preparing for the Run.  Not taking that against him, just comparing the comfort level with Obama and Clinton, by the way.

Below is a USA Today piece with the type of parsing I am talking about. Lets hope the VP selection will over shadow this type of sick Cable Obsession..

Differences surface in McCain-Obama Christian forum
By Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY

Sen. Barack Obama and Sen. John McCain sought to burnish their Christian credentials with voters Saturday night in a civil forum at a California megachurch.

USA TODAY asked five religion and ethics experts to observe the forum broadcast.

They noted sharp differences when Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., asked each candidate when life and human rights begin.

McCain succinctly replied, “At conception.”

Obama said, “Whether you’re looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity is above my pay grade.”

Monsignor Francis Maniscalco, former spokesman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and now public policy director for the diocese of Rockville Centre, N.Y., called the comment a “dodge that wasn’t even intellectually respectable.”

The Rev. Mark Coppenger of Evanston, Ill., a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, called Obama’s reply “specious. Obama has made that very determination in opening the law wide to the killing of the unborn.”

But R. Alta Charo, a professor of law and ethics at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said Obama’s view echoed the Supreme Court’s Roe v. Wade decision. It “specifically says that neither biologists nor doctors nor theologians can agree upon the moral status of the fetus.”

She said McCain’s view on conception was inconsistent with his support of embryonic stem cell research.

“If he believes in human rights at the moment of conception, then he ought to be against embryonic stem cell research, IVF (in vitro fertilization) and even the so-called rhythm method.”

Warren asked each candidate what Jesus meant to him. Both gave the essential Christian response that Jesus is the savior who redeems them.

Still, the Rev. Thomas Reese, a Jesuit priest and fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center in Washington, D.C., called the very question “inappropriate.”

And Rabbi James Rudin of New York City, former Interreligious Affairs director for the American Jewish Committee, wondered “why there were not representatives from other faith communities who are also voting. This is a multi-religious nation.”

During the evening, Obama often drew on biblical lines, citing passages in Matthew and paraphrasing the prophet Micah. McCain turned more to mentions of prayer and personal stories of Christian witness in action.

Charles Huettner of Alexandria, Va., who calls himself an “independent Christian voter,” concluded, “Sen. Obama spoke to the heart and mind, where Sen. McCain spoke from the heart and mind.”



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136 responses to “Faith Forum Assesment As Only Chef Sheila Can

  1. Kurt

    So you’re saying – and I can’t BELIEVE this, that McCain won because he told some fake made-up story he borrowed from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn?
    Perhaps you should go back to cooking…

  2. Steve (AH)

    Whoa, whoa whoa, what’s with the snide personal comment?

  3. Steve (AH)

    Uh any way, Sheila, good job as always. I “purpose’fully didn’t watch Warren’s show, but I am quite amused at finding out that the McCain team cheated and have been caught red handed.

    …and remember, playing by the McCain Game, no one can criticize my post because I am a vet.

  4. A very well written piece Sheila. I too decided not to watch the show, and doubt I will, but I’m glad to have Sheila’s take on the event. Well I’m off to a client for the day. Over and out.

  5. Chef Sheila

    Welcome Kurt!

    I’d say to you please take off the colored glasses and reread my short clip.

    Its called being objective instead of partison. I AM a long time Obama supporter. But realistically.

    Did Obama come to win? Or did he come to persuad and build more voters for his election?

    Are more voters going to listen to their friends or listen to others spouting hate?

    There are a lot of Progressive Christian DEMS out there like me. Are we now going to have a convincing defense to help our church members on the fence?

    Heck Yea. We are. He’s building from the bottom up.

    I’ve say he’s won a lot. just not the whole day. Because there were a whole lot that are afraid to change. I think that audience reflects the Christian Nation.

    Its a beginning.

  6. Chef Sheila

    I’m glad they caught McCain too! I knew he was canned! It just sounded like it. I feel sorry for Pastor Warren. He is honest and this is something that will follow an honest try for information.

  7. Chef Sheila

    Thanks Brian. Have a great day~

  8. Steve (AH)

    How much of McCain’s plagiarism is making the TV news? I have been busy all day. From what I am seeing, its getting some traction on the internet….

  9. Chef Sheila

    Like I said, “Sick Cable Obession” with micro-picking something apart has begun.

    WHERES THE VP? Lets get faith stuff off the chart!!!!

  10. Chef Sheila

    Not much yet!! YOu know the Republican machine. Did you know that 99% of major publications and all the networks are owned and operated by right wing conglomerates? Only Murdock is honest about it.

    I followed to whole swallow up on Crawfordslist. Too bad we don’t have the links anymore. You’d be interested and this news black out on anything stupid or dishonest McCain does would make more sense.

  11. dog's eye view

    Sheila: will get to your post shortly; see you handled the substance and I’m fascinated by a “gotcha” moment, but I am concerned that the McCain camp is going overboard to rewrite history in their favor:

    “Obama did not do well at Saddleback and is calling John McCain — a POW war hero — a cheater”.

    Rather than letting public perception develop by people watching Saddleback program on its own merits, and not through the perspective of Obama as terminal whiner.

    Here’s the letter Campaign Manager Rick Davis sent to NBC about Andrea Mitchell’s MTP comments, via Andrew Sullivan (comments by dog in all caps; I am an excitable canine this morning):

    August 17, 2008
    Mr. Steve Capus
    President, NBC News
    30 Rockefeller Plaza
    New York, NY 10112


    We are extremely disappointed to see that the level of objectivity at NBC News has fallen so low that reporters are now giving voice to unsubstantiated, partisan claims in order to undercut John McCain.

    Nowhere was this more evident than with NBC chief correspondent Andrea Mitchell’s comments on “Meet the Press” this morning. In analyzing last night’s presidential forum at Saddleback Church, Mitchell expressed the Obama campaign spin that John McCain could only have done so well last night because he “may not have been in the cone of silence and may have had some ability to overhear what the questions were to Obama.”

    Here are Andrea Mitchell’s comments in full: (NOTE: CAPITALIZED HERE FOR EMPHASIS)

    Mitchell: “THE OBAMA PEOPLE MUST FEEL THAT HE DIDN’T DO QUITE AS WELL AS THEY MIGHT HAVE WANTED IN THAT CONTEXT, because what they are putting out privately is that McCain may not have been in the cone of silence and may have had some ability to overhear what the questions were to Obama. He seemed so well-prepared.” (NBC’s “Meet The Press,” 8/17/08)

    Make no mistake: This is a serious charge. Andrea Mitchell is repeating, uncritically, a completely unsubstantiated Obama campaign claim that John McCain somehow cheated in last night’s forum at Saddleback Church. (DOG: NO, SHE’S POINTING OUT THAT HE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO, PERIOD. SHE MERELY STATED MCCAIN SEEMED WELL PREPARED. NOT A BAD THING….UNLESS….. )

    Instead of trying to substantiate this blatant falsehood in any way, Andrea Mitchell felt that she needed to repeat it on air to millions of “Meet the Press” viewers with no indication that

    1.) There’s not one shred of evidence that it’s true; (EVIDENCE? IS IT OR IS IT NOT TRUE — NOT ANSWERED)

    2.) In his official correspondence to both campaigns, Pastor Rick Warren provided both candidates with information regarding the topic areas to be covered, which Barack Obama acknowledged during the forum when asked about Pastor Warren’s idea of an emergency plan for orphans and Obama said, “I cheated a little bit. I actually looked at this idea ahead of time, and I think it is a great idea;”


    3.) John McCain actually requested that he and Barack Obama do the forum together on stage at the same time, making these kinds of after-the-fact complaints moot.


    Indeed, instead of taking a critical journalistic approach to this spin, Andrea Mitchell did what has become a pattern for her of simply repeating Obama campaign talking points. (WHICH ARE INCONVENIENT FOR US BECAUSE THERE’S ROOM FOR REASONABLE DOUBT THAT MCCAIN WAS SEQUESTERED, BUT CONVENIENT SINCE WE USED HER LEAD IN ABOUT OBAMA NOT HAVING DONE VERY WELL.


    This is irresponsible journalism and sadly, indicative of the level of objectivity we have witnessed at NBC News this election cycle. Instead of examining the Obama campaign’s spin for truth before reporting it to more than 3 million NBC News viewers, Andrea Mitchell simply passed along Obama campaign conspiracy theories.

    The fact is that during Senator Obama’s segment at Saddleback last night, Senator McCain was in a motorcade to the event


    and then held in a green room with no broadcast feed. In the forum, John McCain clearly demonstrated to the American people that he is prepared to be our next President…..

    We are concerned that your News Division is following MSNBC’s lead in abandoning non-partisan coverage of the Presidential race. (WHY AREN’T YOU MORE LIKE FOX?) We would like to request a meeting with you as soon as possible to discuss our deep concerns about the news standards and level of objectivity at NBC. (EVEN THOUGH MITCHELL’S ONLY COMMENT AFFIRMED OBAMA DID NOT DO WELL — DID YOU GET THAT, FOR THE FOURTH TIME) — AND IT’S EVIDENT MCCAIN COULD HAVE HAD OPPORTUNITY TO LISTEN TO OBAMA SEGMENT OR LEARN OF QUESTIONS IN ADVANCE.)


    Rick Davis
    Campaign Manager
    John McCain 2008

  12. Steve (AH)

    Dog’s Eye, regarding your letter

    Four More Years! Four More Years! Four More Years!

    Can you see what the McCain people would be like in the WH? Meaner than Bush and even more ham handed…

  13. Chef Sheila

    Damn Dog, weigh to long…….Don’t be a max true. At least split it up. Makes the eyes and brain a bit easier…. Or please link it.

    Brian help them please, whats going on with the linking?

  14. Chef Sheila

    So dog, if you would just read my clip and the posts, you will see that the discussion has begun.

    I like what you have to say.

    remember, the Replubican Machine attack backs and the filthy tactics have begun. We’ll see how Obama’s camp responds

  15. dog's eye view

    My comment from last thread; edited a bit:

    Rick Warren CNN clip from 538 website — and see how it differs from what Davis would have you believe from his letter. Several points of conflict.

    Warren clip is worth the watch; it’s interesting to see what he answers and does not.

    Warren to be on Larry King tonight.


    still fascinated with that Rick Davis letter to NBC. It’s so over the top.

    CNN interview with Rick Warren: McCain was not in building yet before program and Warren handed Obama (only) a paper with gist of question on PEPFAR adoptions — which would have been given to McCain at the time as well, had he been on time.

    This is what Obama referred to in the transcript about “I cheated a little bit. I actually looked at this idea ahead of time, and I think it is a great idea”

    NOTICE: Davis letter puts Obama on record as the cheater.

    2.) In his official correspondence to both campaigns, Pastor Rick Warren provided both candidates with information regarding the topic areas to be covered, which Barack Obama acknowledged during the forum when asked about Pastor Warren’s idea of an emergency plan for orphans and Obama said, “I cheated a little bit. I actually looked at this idea ahead of time, and I think it is a great idea;”

    But it’s not evident PEPFAR question was in advance materials given to each candidate; Warren himself says he handed it in writing to Obama just before the event, so he could specifically ask the question and not broadside the candidates.

    This is an attack the messenger ploy, when they could have softballed it.

    PS: If anyone complains about Andrea Mitchell, it could have been the Obama camp opining their guy probably hadn’t done as well because look what they’re saying about McCain… they could be factually reporting what McCain did; does not matter HOW Obama did.

    Is this McCain camp saying “Obama didn’t do well at Saddleback and he’s calling McCain — POW war hero — a cheater — what a whiner” rather that letting public perception and opinion develop on its own?

  16. dog's eye view

    Sheila, I know, that’s probably the longest post I will put up.

    But it’s so preposterous, the more you peel away the layers.

  17. Chef Sheila

    Dog, just one line
    Of course its preposterous….

    this is the campaign manager for McCain. He is making a typical campaign strategy to deflect the “Lack of Cone of Silence.

    Obama is not going to win this one all out like the Pide Piper. Be he is the one that is actually peeling away the layers. It was a good night and thank goodness most of that targeted audience at not watching the BS fly.

  18. dog's eye view

    Yeah, I think Obama’s sincerity will get through, but Davis is going overboard to deflect the cheater charge and — and he might succeed with this — depict Obama as an after the fact whiner.

    I watched some of Saddleback and taped the rest.

    Wish Warren had gone with his climate change question, since stewardship of the earth is important to many of the faithful (among others) and McCain does offer a change from Bushco in that respect. Warren says he did not have time, but that was an opportunity lost.

  19. Chef Sheila

    Well one thing that will be obvious in the months to follow. How many evangelicals migrate because of this.

    I can tell you that in my church before and after the service I heard a little more positive reference to Obama and compliments of his performance.

    Most were in awe of his command of the scripture. This is big.

    Of course I live in a Big Blue State.

    Steve, lives in an area where is would not try to refute his comment about the ones down south. THEY are the ones that scare me. ;0)

  20. No more hugs as Obama tears into McCain

    Even so, Obama stepped to McCain’s defense when a voter criticized his Vietnam era record. A Naval aviator, McCain spent 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war there after being shot down and badly wounded.

    “Respectfully I’m going to disagree with you on McCain and his service,” Obama said. “I think his service was honorable. He deserves respect.”

  21. Sheila I’m about to head out, what are talking about linking up what?

  22. Chef Sheila

    Sorry Brian, I keep seeing from Colleen and dog that they keep getting their links eaten…

    just asking. Maybe human error and maybe not.

  23. Chef Sheila

    Hey that was a great aritcle on the town hall meeting. Just like Obama to come back swinging in an articulate way!

  24. Chef Sheila

    Biden! Biden! Biden!

    Clinton as the dark horse…..>>>>>>thats Sheila running for cover because Dog is trying to bite her in the ass for the comment>>>>>>>>>>

  25. Chef Sheila

    FOX Contributer said Bayh will be the only safe bet.

  26. Well it’s your post Sheila, you’ll have to keep track of the spam


  27. Chef Sheila

    Oh all right, you are going to make me get familiar, aren’t you…… ;0)

  28. Chef Sheila


  29. dog's eye view

    LATimes on Rick Warren’s Sunday sermon; it was on character.,0,4655290.story

  30. Chef Sheila

    GORE GORE GORE……. just kidding.

  31. Chef Sheila

    Great Article Dog. A smidge of the reaction by church members.

    On the question of whether this should have happened or not.

    I will say this. If transmission time and all the rest of the expenses were completely funded by Saddleback church, then isn’t this a case of Freedom of Speech?

    I would think that having a forum that is directed toward faith based…..and this is the only time during the General that this will happen…..we are going to have debates and town halls that don’t address this.

    Well, this is something that was important for enough Christians that the Candidates chose to be there.

    Andrea Mitchell and others treated this as political. The Christians were not and they for the most part, will not.

  32. dog's eye view

    Bayh would be safe for who, per Fox?

    I have no clue, and no strong preference.

    I am wondering if it will be someone who has not been mentioned as heavily.

    A better Hoosier than Bayh: Dick Lugar. Although he’s GOP, but could switch: great foreign affairs expertise, a straight shooter, from a flyover state, long reputation for competence and good judgment; not exciting but what a counterpunch to McCain.


    I’ve made my peace with ticket if it includes Hillary. Most important is winning, and it makes a huge difference if one is top or second on the ticket.

    And if she can pull in what’s called “the Southern and Appalachian” vote (euphemism alert), those kind folks many of whom saddled us with GW Bush twice, well, that’s a help.

    Never my first choice, but could live with it if had to. Hope it does not come to that.

  33. Chef Sheila

    You go girl.

    WHoever gets it will be his best pick. I have faith. I wish the base was more open to a republican VP. But they would rail against the nightmare scenario of assasination.

    I think Hagel would be hands down the best pick.

  34. dog's eye view

    Hagel or Lugar. And wouldn’t VP have to switch party affiliation to run? Otherwise the succession question is a real problem….

  35. Steve (AH)

    I just saw Warren’s question to both Obama and McCain- something to the effect of which Supreme Court Justice would you NOT have appointed. I got really annoyed that he would ask EITHER guy that. Neither should have answered, but both did.

    No matter how open minded I try to be I just can’t go along with candidates going in front a preacher and answering his questions. I see it as anti-freedom.

  36. Chef Sheila

    Wait a minute…..this is rediculous. In the first couple hundred years of Christianity there was the sign of the Fish that was scribbled in dirt to identify Christians in times that where they were being slaughtered for their beliefs.

    Then in recent times and after the rise of the Protestant reformation, the sign of the Cross was pretty much, the way they have identified each other.

    This another case of real micro-picking. You can’t call Mccain on this as a lie and really, he knows it.

    Is McCain Now Copying Solzhenitsyn?

  37. Karolenna

    Hi Gang,

    Sorry I haven’t been around much. Studying for some difficult exams coming up for a job.

    I thought the Saddleback moment for McCain was a choreographed Rovian comedy hour to show a McSame that is funny and plays to the people instead of the usual man who can and does go off half cocked pretty much at any time. He was playing to the audience and I personally would not put anything past Rove to have texted any and everything that was said to Obama to the old fart. McInsane has no credibility at all anymore with the way he has changed just about every position merely to get back the WH for the Repugs.

    I say Biden for VP. He has credentials and charisma that is needed, even though Obama has both as well; but bigots are aplenty especially here.

  38. dog's eye view

    Nugget from LATimes story on Warren Sunday sermon that I find troubling.

    Warren [pastor of nation’s 4th largest church] told his congregation that someone had asked if there was any kind of president he would not vote for.

    “I could not vote for an atheist because an atheist says, ‘I don’t need God,’ ” Warren said. “They’re saying, ‘I’m totally self-sufficient by [myself].’ And nobody is self-sufficient to be president by themselves. It’s too big a job.”


    Fits with polls; vast majority of Americans will not support atheists as political candidates.

    Agnostics? (Like Warren Buffett and many Americans.) Unstated.

  39. Chef Sheila

    Steve, I respect your opinion!

    Glad to see KDN is holding her own….or expelling it? lol

  40. Chef Sheila

    Dog, He’s a pastor…..what do you want? We aren’t going to change the Climate over night.

    But by the body language and his voice inflection and his vibe.

    Obama has got Rick Warren’s vote.

  41. Chef Sheila

    Hey, by the way, did you guys even see the remark to Obama that was buried with all the rest of this guff?

    Rick Warren’s Mic. Before it was lowered.

    “Home Run Guy”.

  42. Chef Sheila

    Hi K Girlfriend.

    I hope all that studying to bring good Karma. Heres to your new job somewhere.

  43. Karolenna

    Thanks Sheila. Good thread. I also agree that Obama has Warren’s vote. I believe Warren has a broader agenda now with concerns that are of the world and not so much with the religious right (or as I say “wrong”) and their saving individual souls agenda.

    The thing about this exam is that I took the damn thing many years ago and excelled. Now that I’m older you would think it would be easier. I have practice books. Some areas I just sail through. Others I agonize over a question too long. I have a competitive nature and could not deal with doing less than great. I’m sure that could be “analyzed”. 😳

  44. Chef Sheila

    Latest on the Dem VP Race: Not Going to be Bayh, Daschle or Clark

  45. Chef Sheila

    Not at all K,

    I just about killed myself, stretching and adding to my 45 year old brain cells when I went back to college.

    Its not your brain power, its the exercise at out age. ;0)

  46. Chef Sheila

    ….”At Our Age”

    Geez Its like my fingers….lol They aren’t as nimble as they used to be. They know where to go, they just don’t want to.

  47. dog's eye view

    Good luck with the exam, Karolenna. Sounds like you’re working very hard; it will come back to you.

    Sheila: having seen that food science book, you did some serious studying too!

  48. Kurt

    Okay, you want to know why I got personal?
    I used to be one of you Christians, so I understand the whole enter into the House of the Lord with fear and trembling nonsense.
    Pastor Warren asked McCain about his Christian faith, and McCain told that stupid cross story which everyone knows is hogwash. McCain lied, to a Pastor, in a church, on the question of his faith. You pointed to this moment in the Forum as McCain’s best moment.
    Not only does that tell me a lot about McCain’s “Christianity”, it tells me all I need to know about yours…

  49. Chef Sheila

    Thanks to TPM for giving the highlights of the Sunday Talk shows. The Surrogates were out in force on the Georigan delema and they were great!

  50. dnd

    Great piece Shelia. Me thinks the McCain campaign doth protest too much.

    ““The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,” Ms. Wallace said.”
    So this is the strategy. Every time McCain gets caught, trot out the old POW line. Brilliant!

    If the Saddleback Smackdown was suppose to be about character, and McCain cheated, well, that says a lot about his character.

  51. Chef Sheila


    Thanks for you opinion. As long as your emoticons are showing and you don’t have the patience to read through with an objective mind, then you will have to react this way.

    I respect that.

    By the way, I’m sorry you trembled when entering your ill fated church. There are a lot out there that use fear to brain wash. I have been to some myself.

    But for years, I have chosed to only belong to the ones that are happy and joyful. I wish the same for you!

  52. Chef Sheila

    By the way Kurt,

    You should notice that we are all varying degrees of belief and non-belief here on Backchannel. I’m the “TOKEN” evengelical and I even don’t choose to believe some the the things YOU GUYS tend to cloak us with, so I say you are looking on a flat plane about Evengelicals.

    We respect each other here enough to be able to take the opposing views with respect and dignity.

    You are welcome to become a regular too. Just try the high road and you will enjoy this as much as we do.

    This a great place and you are an intelligent guy.

  53. Chef Sheila


    YES! Typical REPUG Strategy to deflect on the real story here.

  54. Chef Sheila

    …..And Kurt, I did look at your Blog. very nice design!

  55. dnd

    Obama speaking at a town hall in Albuquerque, NM. With short-lister Richardson. Wink, wink 😉

  56. Chef Sheila


  57. dog's eye view

    Might be link to Obama live link; Albuquerque event on pay equality, being held at a library.

    He seems to be sitting near the reference section.

    Answering a question about pre-existing conditions and medical insurance right now.

  58. Chef Sheila

    Medalists in the trivia and cheap shots obsessed Summer Camaign

  59. Chef Sheila

    hey, I can’t get it. My laptop doesn’t have enough umph.

    Maybe a synopsis?

  60. Chef Sheila

    But here is a news article for the soft hearted.

    Baby whale seems to think yacht is its mother

  61. Karolenna

    Referring to Kurt’s posts – I am a baptized person who spent many, many years as an organist in churches. Most of my family is what I would call fundamentalist Christians. I don’t consider myself that. I pretty much agree with Sheila. As a very young person coming from my family’s upbringing I too had some experiences that were traumatic. My mother’s side of the family has started huge churches and schools in and around Chattanooga, TN. Most of the traumatic experiences were while I was visiting with them. To this day, even though I played for churches, I’m careful what kind of church I enter. Also, I am one who believes there is a higher power, although I don’t use the name Jesus as the fundamentalists do all the time. Agnostic is probably not a word I would use either. The Bush Administration, et al, over these past eight years, along with the so-called pastors supporting them, have made me even more leery of these kinds of people and are using scriptures “not” to vote for a black person. Unbelievable!

    I read the link below in July when it was in the Dispatch. It may be interesting to some of you. It’s about the latest finding of a portion of the Dead Sea Scrolls and somewhat goes along with my own intuitions.

    “Ancient tablet puts new light on Messiah
    Artifact suggests resurrection story came before Jesus”

  62. dog's eye view

    $15B/year for 10 years for investment in energy alternatives

    q on education: subprime education system

    1st generation college grad; grandparents semi-literate. social structure — strong family; raised by g’parents; got doctorate in education.

    For every child, it is society and community that embraces child too; how to form the social contract…. how do we org small communities… . will you fill your govt agencies w ppl who roll up their sleeves like you do?

    for renewable energy: why not building skills at all levels education for workers to do it? How to undo NCLB?

    A; most imp measure for econ growth is how well educ’d the workforce.

    If CN and India providing more engineers… companies can locate anywhere…. youth well trained vital for economy … analyze and listen to arguments; kind of society we are creating

    our schools work well for some an dfail miserably for others; disprop AA and Latinos in failing schools; native Ams too. We hv known this for 20-30 years. Have not mobilized the will and energy and resources. NCLB: without the money.

    1) change NCLB assess progress in a school — hi and measurable stds — test at beginning of year; use term for instruction and teaching. Let kids learn. Monitor their progress

  63. dog's eye view

    2) for low income and minority esp: early childhood educ; need to know numbers and letters, etc. /discussing strains on parents/ good early childhd ed

    3) teachers: better pay, support and career development

    4) beyond high school — and curric there should be designed around jobs that will be there — train in HS on energy sciences, etc. Apprentice outside classroom, true for college bound and trade

    5) college: comm colls and 4 yr have to be more affordable

    $4K tuition cred per year for community service

    that’s what govt can work w state and local inds to do

    govt cannot do on its own

    got to be communtys and families working to install love of knowledge

    TV set off; turn off video games.

    All work with parents to reinforce: educ is your ticket; it’s how you live out the Am dream

  64. Chef Sheila

    oooo thanks Dog, Thats great!

  65. Chef Sheila

    really interesting K,

    Like a psychic that predicting the future. Now I get how the speak in the Israeli communty at the time, could have been talking about the coming of the Messiah.

  66. dog's eye view

    as prez cannot legislate values, but can talk about them.

    Make sure fams have enuf time and resources to focus on parenting issues. [try to Reduce probs w health insur, etc.]

    indiv + govt + commun responsibilty.

    Last question: military family member: thank you for bringing our boys home. Applause.

    We are being bled dry by $$ put into the war? How better to use that $$ for our country? Re military wives — vets will return with med and severe mental probs — you setting up a better system for better care?

    OB: just returned from Iq and Afg; our troops make you so proud of them; rebldg schools; doing extraordinary work. But difference betw IQ and AF: AF is a war we must fight and win; IQ was a war of choice and huge miscalc/strategic blunder. Viol down dramatically due to our mil and Sunni and Shia have put down arms for a while, but still not enuf poli accomm among the groups. Trillion$$ 4K lives. Time for Iqs to stand up for selves. Esp since Iq govt ended up with 80B surplus parked in US banks drawing interest while taxpayers paying for Iqi reconstruction.

    Time to start the w/drawal.

    McCain: perpetual occup; that would be a mistake.

    We must get the bulk of our trps out; some we will have to send to Afgh (we were distracted from that war)

    But leaves huge number mil coming back.

    Some money saved must be spent on returning vets and fams.

    1) screen all for PTSDF
    2) better mental health care for adjustmt to civ life; many self med iwth alc and subst otherwise
    3) get VA payments immediately
    will cost us more…

    4) must rebuild our mil, but we should still get billions back (from not spending in Iq) for rebldg Am.

    If everyone compared notes, 95% of us would agree on our priorities and that we cannot continue on present course.

    spkg on what a crucial election and NM important; GOP good at attacking; we need to hit back fight hard work hard.

    But rem: reason we will win is you. You know all of us have family and are fighting for them; don’t regret this from 20 years ahead

  67. dog's eye view

    importance of living up to our ideals as Ams; I don’t accept that future for my children and (in time) any grandchildren.


  68. Karolenna

    Dog, I have always said that you cannot legislate morality.

  69. dog's eye view

    wish I’d started earlier; he had some good stuff on his healthcare plan.

    anyway, maybe it will be on website later and I’ll make notes for you then.

    right now he’s not visible; crowd standing around; library has great mission style hardback chairs — maple maybe — wouldn’t mind some in my house.


  70. Chef Sheila

    There is something very strong to be said about one on ones of town hall meetings. I wonder if he can withstand all the campaigning now.

  71. Karolenna

    Wanted to share this short letter to the editor in today’s paper. Remember last week when McSame said something like “Nobody invades another country in this century?” I won’t indicate the letter writer.

    “I don’t understand why there is such a hue and cry over the Russian invasion of Georgia. The Russians have gone to Georgia to find the weapons of mass destruction, and as soon as they find them, they will be out of there.” [snark, snark]

  72. Chef Sheila

    Well ladies, Got to go for a luncheon with a dear friend.


  73. Steve (AH)

    Deliriously up from a nap-

    I hope it is Biden (of the three they are all talking about).

    Good thread today

  74. dog's eye view

    Steve: enjoy your last day of freedom before shackled to the educational industrial complex again.

    KDN helping with the nap and also delirious or at least spry?

  75. Steve (AH)

    Oh KDN was knocked out under my bedside table. THIS TIME she wasn’t snoring….she’s also having a good day today health wise.

  76. dog's eye view

    Craig’s got a special guest having trouble logging in — Mudcat Saunders. Time to lurk.

  77. dnd

    I posted a piece from Denver’s Rocky Mt. News by Mike Littwin about a conversation he had with Mudcat Saunders. Required reading for the Obama campaign:

  78. Steve (AH)

    Who the hell is Mudcat Saunders?

  79. Steve (AH)

    Well, I just read the article and I LIVE in Appalachia and I have never heard of him.

  80. dnd

    Mudcat Saunders is a genuine genius when it come to political analysis, particularly about southern voters. Doesn’t pull punches and tells it like he sees it. Does not suffer fools gladly.

  81. Chef Sheila

    Afternoon everyone!

  82. Karolenna


    Believe me. If you are in Georgia, which I thought you were, YOU ARE NOT FROM Appalachia. Real Appalachia is where you don’t go up a winding country road without a gun. You might run into a bunch making moonshine and get some buckshot in your ass. 😕

    I always thought Appalachia was all of WV, SE Ohio, Eastern KY, Eastern TN, and probably some of VA and NC. My father, who traveled those territories all his life, said “never leave the ‘hard road'”. That’s a funny joke because they didn’t have paved road for so long that they are still called “hard roads”.

  83. Chef Sheila

    Obama’s Vice Presidential Pick Is Already Staffed

    This is interesting. Meet the staffers

  84. Chef Sheila


    Chucky T. Preps for Conventions

    The Los Angeles Times’ Matea Gold profiles MSNBC’s Chuck Todd, as he and others gear up for the 2008 presidential conventions.

    He is readying to, “deliver analysis on MSNBC from dawn until late at night, squeezing in appearances on the broadcast network.”

    Todd, who has a growing fan base, also gets some Meet the Press buzz courtesy of NBC News president Steve Capus. “Chuck may very well fit into our future plans for ‘Meet the Press,'” he says.

    Also from Capus: “Others who are in the space tend to draw more attention to themselves than Chuck does. He’s not out there showboating.”

    As for the spectrum of cable news convention coverage, Gold sums it up: “Fox News with its political eminence grise, Brit Hume, helming its prime-time programming; CNN with its pundit-packed ‘Election Center’ set; and MSNBC with its colorful anchor team of Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews, who unapologetically slide between news and opinion.”

    Notice a certain statement about Meet The Press?

  85. Sheila that was an interesting article about the VP staffing, I think Reed will work well with all of them.

  86. Chef Sheila

    Veep Week Speculation Hits Fever Pitch

    Four years ago, John Kerry consumed five days with his selection of John Edwards. He unveiled his selection on a Tuesday. The two then campaigned together in New York, West Virginia and New Mexico before ending with a final rally on Saturday in Edward’s home state of North Carolina. Obama’s roll out may be no more than two days before the scene shifts to convention activities.

    Nothing is out of the question on timing, but the odds now favor an announcement no earlier than Friday. If Obama moves sooner, it will mean disrupting a schedule that is already set. He will be in Orlando Tuesday for a speech to the VFW convention, an important event that he probably won’t want to overshadow with a vice presidential pick. Then he heads to North Carolina and Virginia for a bus tour on that runs into Thursday.

    If there is no announcement by then, the orgy of speculation will be off the charts — perhaps just as Obama’s advisers have planned.

  87. dnd

    Brian Williams reports that if Michael Phelps was a country, he’d be tied for sixth place in the gold medal count with Russia, Japan and South Korea.

  88. dnd

    Interesting article. I think it’s gonna be Biden. Great foreign relations cred, and he’s the best attack dog on the short list.

    Obama’s lucky. He’s got a lot of great people to pick from. Look for many of the short-listers to wind up on the cabinet.

  89. Chef Sheila

    You know….that bus tour through Virginia and North Carolina would be a great beginning for Obama and the VEEP. I mean what a great way to high light both candidates and two very important states

  90. Karolena said at 1:43 she saw this letter to the eidtor: “I don’t understand why there is such a hue and cry over the Russian invasion of Georgia. The Russians have gone to Georgia to find the weapons of mass destruction, and as soon as they find them, they will be out of there.”

    Well, for the record, and after some googling, the Russians may have been responsible for leaving nuclear and biological weapons in Georgia and in the Ukraine when the Soviet Union broke up in 1991.

    Russia believes it has a right to control the Black Sea. To do so, it parked about half of its nuclear submarines with nuclear weapons in ports in Georgia and Ukraine as well as the Georgian breakaway areas of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

    The new Russia in 1991 and thereafter didn’t have the resources to take the WMD’s out of the new states of Ukraine and Georgia. So, in all likelihood, there just might be WMD’s present already, and maybe that’s why the Russia is worried about the possible use of these weapons in an all out conflagration with Georgia.

    So, the letter to the editor, while tongue in cheek, may have hit the nail on the head without even knowing it.

    Thanks, Sheila, for the review of the candidates’ religious views over the weekend. I’m with Jefferson, religious beliefs have no place in a democratic society where one’s beliefs are private and not for the public to either know or exploit.

  91. Chef Sheila

    Thanks Eprof and as always you educate me anytime you post here!

  92. Karolenna

    Eprof ,

    My comment was from a letter writer to the local newspaper. I thought it interesting that she was addressing going into a country to invade it while saying there are weapons of mass destruction merely to invade a country…just as GWB did. And, McCain said last week that no country invades another country in this century and we know that was a lie.

    You make valid points about Russia knowing there are WMD in Georgia, but it also sounds like you don’t believe they will leave with them. I think this is going to be a story that is with us for a long time. Russia and Iran seem close now. Possibly Putin thought GWB would attack Iran and a reason for attacking Georgia for extra leverage. McCain seems to be campaigning as if he would do that. If I was in the area I’d take that rhetoric seriously and I see your point.

  93. dog's eye view

    Patricia had this up at Morning Martini; account of last day of Obama’s Hawaii vacation.

    May Patricia, her family, home, Fred the cat and all friends and neighbors come through unscathed by Hurricane Fay.

  94. Hi everyone,
    Who’s going to get a text message tomorrow? I think I am.

  95. dog's eye view

    burrito: have missed you. So you think decision day will be tomorrow?

  96. I have been so darn busy, I think it’s tomorrow….yep….and my phone is charged for a change. : )

    It’s a busy time, with getting the children all ready for school sports and , even the travel we have to do … not complaining, just saying….my head is spinning… we bought a motorcycle and it’s late in delivery….so I am hounding them and at the same time keeping it a secret…

    I checked my mail today, and had a new appreciation for keeping up….because there was so much info…..I still don’t hve the time to catch up.

  97. Verdict are saying it Biden…by their guesses.

  98. Hey UB when are you getting your motorcycle license?

  99. Everyone enjoy the rest of the evening….I got my Obama ’08 bumper sticker today….and usually I would never put a sticker on my car, sure maybe the van ( the van gets all the stickers) or the other car, but no stickers allowed on my car…..This year it’s too important , so it’s on my car!


  100. lol Brian I passed already! and so did My daughter….we are waiting for our Bike.

  101. The bike has been delayed….I bought it Saturday….and wasn’t pushy enough… tomorrow we get our little small baby bike.

  102. I wrote a little piece about it that is at the office……

  103. But I have to go now…I’ll touch base manana

  104. K — I don’t think Russia is leaving Georgia or the break away areas any sooner than the US is leaving Iraq: one hundred years! OMG, I hope not! Welcome to the new “balance of power” game being played out on the world stage — and we haven’t even placed China or India in the game yet! We live in exciting, and dangerous, times!

  105. dnd

    Here’s why I only buy chilies grown in the good ol’ USA:

  106. Chef Sheila

    Oh man dnd, how can you tell? I have never seen a littany of where the peppers are coming from in the regions I’ve cooked in here in the US. Colorado maybe more appreciative of those details?

  107. Chef Sheila

    Burrito, you have been missed!

  108. dnd

    Make friends with your local produce guy. They can tell you. If you’re buying fresh chilies in January, chances are they aren’t grown in the US.

    To tide me over for the winter, I get a couple of bushels of roasted chilies in the fall and freeze them.

  109. horsedooty

    look for Hatch chilies in Sept coming from Hatch, NM. Some of the best green chilies in the world.

  110. Steve (AH)

    Good morning gang, checking in on my first day back to work. likely wont be back in until at least 6 PM——All is well here among four and two legged family members.

  111. Steve (AH)

    Of the Georgian-Russian Conflict: From all I have been able to read, this has been a very complex situation made simple by the TV media and by the McCain campaign. Its yet one more dirty war for the world to see where we are getting ourselves involved.

    Oil is gold.

  112. dog's eye view

    Morning all.

    Looked at Orson Swindle (fellow POW) quote on what McCain and other POWs discussed during their Hanoi Hilton stay:

    From Politico this May; Andrew Sullivan linked to it (he’s chasing down the cross anecdote from Saddleback), but that’s not what caught my eye:

    “…Even when he was imprisoned, McCain was not one to confide his feelings on God.

    “I don’t recall us talking specifically about our faith,” says Orson Swindle, one of McCain’s closest friends and a fellow POW. “We talked about our friends, families, our resistance posture, and that our country didn’t seem to have the will to win.”

    Belief in a higher power helped them survive the routine torture and daily indignities, Swindle says.

    “It would help us endure what we had to endure. But we knew God wasn’t going to come down and wave a magic wand.” …..


    The POWs discussing that their country did not seem to have the will to win.

    I wonder if McCain hopes to instill that in us now, and it’s why he really won’t give up on another terrible war that is without civilian support.

    You would never get that filter of “the will to win” out of your head, especially if it was a constant thought during years of captivity, and it might cloud your judgment when you encounter a truly bad and should not have been fought war.

    America does have the will to win in Afghanistan, which is why Bushco has been so careful throughout to lump the two together at every possibility.

  113. dog's eye view

    researching sea glass ideas for landscaping; found a great blog you might like

  114. Chef Sheila

    Obama speaking to the VFW this morning on CNN.

    He’s doing a great job at being strong and forceful about his disgust for McCain’s action. His talk about how we should go about getting our country out

    About his Grandfather and how he raised Obama.

    Man, he’s hitting all the points the VFW would want to hear. This speech is a home run.

  115. Chef Sheila

    Here is my bet on the VP selection announcement.

    I say, Wednesday afternoon or evening and then they will take the Virginia and North Carolina bus Tour together.

    I think the VP selectee knows right now…..someone is getting his bags packed.

    Of course I have been wrong before, but it just seems right considering that the bus tour goes for Thursday and Friday.

  116. dog's eye view

    HIS bags, Sheila?

  117. Chef Sheila

    ….lol He’s packing his bags!

  118. dog's eye view

    Not looking good for that lost baby whale in Australia; it’s getting weaker and the Aussies say they are not set to feed it for 11 months and don’t know what to feed it; it’s maybe 2-3 weeks old. Italian paper said a mercy killing had not been ruled out.

    I wish they could try to save it; I would contribute to its care, in hopes of saving other whales… Nature is red in tooth and claw, though.

  119. Chef Sheila

    Morning John Boy!

  120. This is what I want for my next birthday!

  121. dog's eye view

    Interesting Pew poll on where people get their news, and how well-informed the audience/readership of various options

  122. Chef Sheila


    now thats some interesting figures. Thanks!

  123. dog's eye view

    Hilarious. AP error via Talking Points:

    “His top contenders are said to include Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty and former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney. Less traditional choices mentioned include former Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Ridge, an abortion-rights supporter, and Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman, the Democratic vice presidential prick in 2000 who now is an independent.”

  124. Chef Sheila

    LOL Awesome Dog! That is sooo good!

  125. dnd

    This just in: Gore to speak at DNCC. Thursday I think.

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